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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 18, 2008 10:01am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Profiting off of Archive.org?

Howdy all. I've come across several eBay auctions selling DVDs of footage obviously DL'd from Archive.org. Is this permissible? They do not credit Archive.org at all.

And has anyone seen http://romanoarchives.altervista.org/ ? Is he a contributor to Archive.org or is he stealing Archive.org material and claiming credit?

I just hate seeing Archive.org getting ripped off...

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Poster: RevRoach Date: Aug 19, 2008 9:26pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

I would have to ask how are these DVDs "obviously DL'd from Archive.org"? And how do you know that they don't make donations to IA?

Also what would be the point of giving credit, would IA make anything off of that? I think not.

If you have a problem with people salling DVDs of DL'd films on EBay, take it up with them. It is not aloud in EBays TOS to sale CDR/DVDR.

BTW, do you donate to IA? If you feel so badly for the poor archive, then you should.

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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 19, 2008 10:00pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

"I would have to ask how are these DVDs "obviously DL'd from Archive.org"? "

From the content and selection of available videos.

"And how do you know that they don't make donations to IA?"

And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

"Also what would be the point of giving credit, would IA make anything off of that? I think not."

Are you serious? How could increased exposure and credit NOT help IA? Someone sees that IA is the source, stops by, decides to support them via a donation.

"If you have a problem with people salling DVDs of DL'd films on EBay, take it up with them. It is not aloud in EBays TOS to sale CDR/DVDR."

I'm not an agent of IA and it's not within my authority to police eBay. I was just curious as to why an IA agent WASN'T. Unfortunately though, the quality and tone of responses here indicates that the rats have over run the sugar pile. :-(

"BTW, do you donate to IA? If you feel so badly for the poor archive, then you should."

As a matter of fact, I do. And for someone who seems to soak up alot of their resources Mr. Roach, I certainly hope you do as well.

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Poster: RevRoach Date: Aug 22, 2008 12:35pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

I guess I do, so heres another one:

http://www.archive.org/details/CAT_PEOPLE

When naval construction designer Oliver Reed (Kent Smith) sees Serbian born beauty Irena Dubrovna (Simone Simon) at a zoo, he flirts with her, and soon they fall in love and marry. Complications arise because Irena believes she is the victim of an ancient Serbian curse that causes her to turn into a panther if a man tries to make love to her, and the marriage is not consummated. Oliver sends Irena for treatment with psychiatrist Dr. Louis Judd (Tom Conway), and Oliver seeks "consolation" with his colleague Alice Moore (Jane Randolph). Irena becomes jealous when she learns that she may be losing Oliver to Alice.

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Poster: RevRoach Date: Aug 20, 2008 9:08pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

"And for someone who seems to soak up alot of their resources..."
I'm not sure what you mean by that, I upload as much as I download. IA is a great place for my wants and needs.
And yes, they have gotten part of my income.

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Poster: charles37 Date: Aug 20, 2008 5:32am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

As someone else mentioned archive.org is alike a curator. Now that doesn't mean the individual isn't in the wrong. Some of the CC licensing (non-commercial) would prohibit the individual from putting the content on CD and selling it for profit, but this would be on a video-by-video basis and it would be the creators of the videos that should be notified, not archive.org.

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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 20, 2008 8:32am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

I understand that IA is acting as the curator for these films (and other works) and their legal responsibility (and/or ability and resources to pursue any actionable infringement) may be limited. My point is that these people are profiting from the work of others, to the probable detriment of IA. Is it illegal? I don't know as I'm not a lawyer, but what bothers me even more is the sense of entitlement some of the posters here have. For the most part, these films and other works would NOT BE AVAILABLE to the general public without IA. Should IA become a non-viable entity in the future (through waning interest, lack of support and donations, whatever), they will cease to be available once more. That would be very unfortunate.

And lest we think of IA as a faceless and limitless resource, think of the time and resources donated by countless IA workers and contributors. _They_ are not doing this so that some bottom feeder can profit from their work.

To be honest, I think the majority of people who purchase these DVDs probably would continue to do so even if they knew of IA. As I mentioned before, most people do not have the technological prowess or lack a fast internet connection, so they would most likely still want to purchase the content through some means.

So Charles, I hope I've made my concerns somewhat clearer. I guess I'm just surprised that IA doesn't appear concerned about this at all.

Best Regards,
Ed T.

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Poster: Doctor_Hu Date: Dec 17, 2008 4:55pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

I think the reason Archive.org is not concerned with this is because there's really nothing destructive to the Archive going on with this. In the case of public domain films, the films are just that - public domain. Sure, it would be nice to direct people to the Archive as the original source, but - as you already seem to understand - they're under no legal obligation to do so. And while a credit might help bring traffic to the site, not crediting them doesn't hurt the site's traffic.

The thing is, the Archive is a resource provided free of charge. They freely give access to public domain materials, which the downloader can use as they see fit. Up to and including commercial exploitation. And, frankly, that's how it should be.

Another point is that some curation programs actually don't like to be credited as a source for a commercial product. I don't presume to speak for the Archive - it would be up to them to tell people their stance on it - but I know that Project Gutenberg actually requires that commercial products made from their texts *not* contain any credit for Project Gutenberg. They'd rather their name remain associated with the "free library" concept than have it linked to a product that actually costs money.

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Poster: jonc Date: Aug 18, 2008 10:21am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

The content here is generally in the public domain. Licensing may vary, but people are free to view, modify, distribute and even sell it as they wish. The vendors you refer to are providing a service; some people don't have DSL or simply don't want to bother with burning disks and will gladly pay someone else a few bucks to do this for them.

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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 18, 2008 10:37am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

I can certainly understand people willing to pay for the convenience of not having to download a film (especially if they're not technically proficient or lack high speed internet access), but the ebay auctions do not credit Archive.org and that seems like a pretty rotten and unethical way of operating.

And if Mr. Romano is not the contributor of the films on his website and is instead taking undeserved credit for retrieving and restoring these films, then I can hardly see how that can be construed as providing a service.

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Poster: jonc Date: Aug 18, 2008 11:39am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

I'm not sure what you have in mind in the way of "credit". The Archive is a curator, or a library. It doesn't "own" the works here, it provides servers to store and distribute them. Do you credit the public libray in your sources for an essay?

This makes me think of the closing credits in "Bambi Meets Godzilla"...

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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 18, 2008 12:07pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

By 'credit' I mean, of course, to acknowledge your source. I _would_ credit my library if they were the sole source of the material in question. Additionally, public libraries are government sponsored and paid for by our tax dollars. Archive.org, while being a non-profit, is still a private entity and dependent on contributions for its survival. So when someone either misrepresents themselves as the source for this material or profits off it without CREDITing their source (Archive.org), then they are in essence denying Archive.org potential revenue to continue operations.

The world is full of parasites, but it's a poor parasite that kills its host...

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Poster: jonc Date: Aug 18, 2008 1:04pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

It would be nice publicity for the Archive to have DVDs shipped with the IA label. This would be purely charity, though. The vendors are under no more legal or moral obligation than if they had purchased a tape and digitized it. Would they be bound obligated the video store in that case?

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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 18, 2008 3:42pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

Your analogies are weak because public libraries and video stores are ubiquitous while entities such as archive.org are not.

Why do you continue to use these poor analogies instead of addressing the stated issue? You appear to have an agenda which is the rationalization of charging people for free content without adding any value. And with this basis you're going to mandate what is and what is not ethical behavior? I think not.

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Poster: mandrakes Date: Aug 20, 2008 2:44pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

This is not the only source of these films. You are assuming Archive.org is the source. I'd agree it is very likely but still, you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

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Poster: Campfire Date: Aug 28, 2008 5:00pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

>>This is not the only source of these films. You are assuming Archive.org is the source. I'd agree it is very likely but still, you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

Quite true. Virtually everything here is available SOMEWHERE else--which frankly is why it's HERE. These are all someone's rips of existing DVDs or VHSs, or even television broadcasts. Nobody posting here is actually in the business of refurbishing, restoring and releasing films otherwise unavailable. Browsing through any Mom 'n' Pop video store worth its salt will turn up copies of a good deal of the stuff here--not copies made FROM here, but copies that were copied TO here!

The major value of a website like IA is that it provides access, not necessarily to stuff you can rent from Blockbuster, but to some esoteric and foreign titles that might not otherwise be accessible to everyone. It isn't really an "archive" in any legitimate sense of the word. It's just a more all-encompasing version of a "warez" sharing blog, with the exception that it's sensitive to the requirements of the law.

So to insist that any entrepreneur who markets a movie he found here should "credit his source" is also to insist that everyone posting anything HERE also "credit his source".



This post was modified by Campfire on 2008-08-29 00:00:51

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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 20, 2008 3:39pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

Very true.

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Poster: RevRoach Date: Aug 22, 2008 1:24pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

You want to know what I think hurts the archives the most.
Crap like this:
http://www.archive.org/details/kkljljlkj

http://www.archive.org/details/Aopotter_smackit

http://www.archive.org/details/VVVNBBNB

http://www.archive.org/details/JHJHGKHGHG

http://www.archive.org/details/dsfdf43f3trt

Copyright TV shows will kill the archives long before any one making a buck off of downloads from here.

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Poster: Visual16 Date: Aug 31, 2008 6:52pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

I'm a >6 year user/fan. I hope nothing kills the Archive!!!
And all those example posts you put up have been removed. In a consciencious way, if people help to police the site, less trouble I'm sure! We need a quick and easy report system for bad files.

Back to the original post, I'm glad to see this discussed here. I have been to youtube and seen where the user "links" to his personal website, and then calls himself this "great original provider of historical footage", etc. Charges a fortune $30 a disk for Prelinger footage, and the entire collection is nothing but Prelinger footage. I guess they read the fine print about Public Domain. Is this where the Creative Commons Licence is any help?
Obviously, the "comments are disabled" on youtube and also on their "sales site"...I wonder why! LOL

The very mention of Archive.org or Prelinger archives blows their whole trip..

So the only method I can come up with is on Youtube post Prelinger stuff and MENTION Prelinger Archives, www.archive.org and use every search tag they use to get traffic, and use the same picture for the film that they use so people can see that they are identical films! That way the Yousnooze search engine will place their "offerings" next to a link to where the public can get the same stuff for FREE. Any other ideas, post :)

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Poster: Ed T. Date: Aug 22, 2008 1:54pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Profiting off of Archive.org?

Is there any way to see who has submitted an item?